Speaking to the Future:
Elizabeth "Bette" Gilbert Saunders
Oral History Interview with
Elizabeth "Bette" Saunders
Conducted on April 13, 1992, recorded in Castle Rock, Colorado.
1993.003.0002
Castle Rock Historical Society Oral History Project
[Interview conducted] by Starr Oberlin
Transcribed by Cecily North
Original transcript on deposit at
Douglas County History Research Center
Douglas County Libraries
Note: The transcript of this oral history is as accurate as possible. All text in brackets is not part of the oral history. It has been added for clarification purposes.
STARR OBERLIN: This interview is under the sponsorship of the Castle Rock Historical Society. This is Starr Oberlin. I will be interviewing Elizabeth, better known as Bette, Saunders. The location of our interview is at Bette's home at 203 Perry Street. The date is April 13, 1992 and it's about eleven o'clock a.m. The opinions expressed in this interview will be those of Mrs. Saunders. Copyrights to this recording reside with the Castle Rock Historical Society. Our interview today is an addenda to a taped interview completed on March 7, 1992 by Stan Oliner of the Colorado Historical Society. To begin Bette, would you tell us, give us just a little run down of your family tree beginning with your grandparents names.
ELIZABETH SAUNDERS: My grandfather was Myron M. Noyes, uh born March the 23rd, 1855 – Libertyville, Lake County, Illinois and he died in November of 1922 but I cannot remember the day. My grandmother was Sylvia Ellen Roman, born September the 28th, 1861 – Mount Vernon, Knox County, Ohio. Died May the 4th, 1937. My grandfather and grandmother were married at Larkspur, Colorado – February the 22nd, 1822 [1882] on the Old J. P.[James Patrick] McInroy ranch. Now do you want my paternal grandparents?
OBERLIN: Yes, could I have those?
SAUNDERS: Joseph Gilbert – born September the 2nd, 1848 in Van Wert, Iowa [Ohio]. Died 1934 in Los Angeles, California. He married Ellen Elizabeth Campbell, born October the 5th, 1849. She died December the 25th, 1921 around -- and she was born around Delph, Delphis Ohio. They were married January the 12th, 1871 but I do not know where they were married. I imagine it was in Ohio.
OBERLIN: Would you spell for us Campbell? Is that a C-A-M-P?
SAUNDERS: C-A-M-P-B-E-L-L. That's my only claim to Scotch ancestry. Now -- do you want my mother or my father first?
OBERLIN: It doesn't matter.
SAUNDERS: Well let's see. My father was David Newton Gilbert, born February 28th, 1886 near Beloit, Kansas. He died November the 20th, 1968 in Castle Rock. Uh -- my mother was -- wait a minute, where did I -- Theodora Irene Noyes, born September 24th, 1890. Died October 13th, 1948 in Castle Rock. Dad and mom were married Septem -- uh Thursday, January the 20th, 1910 at St. Johns Cathedral in Denver, Colorado.
OBERLIN: Married on a Thursday? That's an unusual day isn't it, to be married. Now were both your parents born in Castle Rock?
SAUNDERS: No, daddy was born, I said, near Beloit, Kansas.
OBERLIN: Oh Beloit, right I'm sorry. And your mother --
SAUNDERS: My mother was born in Castle Rock.
OBERLIN: Oh!
SAUNDERS: Now do you want my brothers and sisters or just let it go at that?
OBERLIN: Uh -- I think that is adequate for what -- for our purposes. Thanks Bette. Now I understand that Wilcox Street was not always called Wilcox.
SAUNDERS: It wasn't always called Wilcox but it always was Wilcox. If you go back to a Plat of the original town. I think it's 1890 in Jo Marr's book you'll find it. It's listed as Wilcox. 1890 map of Castle Rock and it is Wilcox.
OBERLIN: Do you know for whom that was named?
SAUNDERS: -- I'd have to look it up. Uh -- Linda Krebs has that information and even has a picture of Wilcox. But I can't remember if his name was George --
OBERLIN: Then the main street was really, was always Wilcox. The people just called it Main Street.
SAUNDERS: Called it Main Street, in fact this one time they even called it Front Street. So and it was just -- well what local people do.
OBERLIN: Now I understand your grandparents had a home on Wilcox. Would you describe that for us? Give us the address and describe it.
SAUNDERS: Well it was -- they call it 429 Wilcox now but in those days we didn't have any street numbers but it was a little white frame house with a pretty little front porch and a lot of gingerbread. And it had a, when grandma and grandpa bought it, it was just a little tiny house and they built on an addition on the back and -- at one time there was a stair, there was, there was, always was a bedroom upstairs but when they bought it the stairs to the upstairs went up the outside of the house. So when they put on the addition they closed that in so the stairway was on the inside just off of the back porch. They added the back porch and a back bedroom to what was already there but I think originally from the first little house there was just probably three rooms -- four rooms -- the living room, the bedroom, the dining room and the kitchen.
OBERLIN: Can you remember any of these rooms? Can you describe them to us? Maybe pieces of furniture that were in them or --
SAUNDERS: Well I can't, I can't look at a room in my house if there isn't stuff that was out of grandma's house -- in -- in the -- in my den is the dresser -- and a chest of drawers. And the living room is the desk, golden oak desk, another chest of drawers near the dining room. All practically, all of the little knick-knacks, dishes -- in the dining room, all of my linens practically came from my grandmother's house. Most of those kitchen knick-knacks on that shelf came from my grandmother's house and of course and my mothers. Stuffed in that -- shelf there, the old sewing implements out of my grandmother's house, a lot of them.
OBERLIN: Wonderful --
SAUNDERS: In the bedroom is a chest -- well they called it a flower chest but now I wonder if it was really a dower chest. And if -- that's an old -- coverlet, woven coverlet that was made in 1861 that my grand, great-grandmother bought the year my grandmother was born. And that's how we found out where my grandmother was born.
OBERLIN: Because that coverlet's dated --
SAUNDERS: It has -- the coverlet says it was made by “Jacob and Michael Augner”, Mount -- Mount Vernon, Knox County, Ohio, 1861.
OBERLIN: Well that's a treasure. Now on this picture Bette it looks like there is a door at the top above the front porch --
SAUNDERS: There was a door up there and opened out onto the top of the front porch and at one time there was a pretty railing around up there, kind of a balcony type thing.
OBERLIN: Do you know why they did that in older architecture? Why they put a door up at the top on the second story.
SAUNDERS: Might have been in case of fire, because the heater, the big old black estate old heater sat in the living room and the chimney went right up through the roof, through the upstairs bedroom and out the roof and that -- was between the bed and the downstairs, the stairs so maybe they put that door up there just incase there was a fire, they could get out.
OBERLIN: I know there's one in our house and I see them often in older homes.
SAUNDERS: And that's the only explanation I could have.
OBERLIN: Now I see a wonderful picket fence around the house.
SAUNDERS: Yes [laughs]. That was there, it was there for years and years, well -- and sometime after daddy died, 1948 -- along in there somewhere the fence got pretty ratty. It had to be repaired and painted dozens of times over the years but my mother decided to take the picket fence down so she took the picket fence down and she said the house gets too cold. I've got to put the picket fence back up so she did. So the picket fence was there until 1967 and that's when we -- by then my sister and I owned the property and the house was not torn down, it was moved and Ramsour brothers moved it. And it used to be out north of town and they used it for a while as an office. And then I think they built an office and used it for storage and one day it disappeared and I have no idea whether they burned -- I don't know what happened to it.
OBERLIN: When you say north of town, is that still on Wilcox?
SAUNDERS: Well it's on what's known now as Liggett Road. Out -- where the big school garage is, the bus garage is out north. -- That would have been on Highway 85.
OBERLIN: Now why don't we take a walk down Main Street or Wilcox uh -- beginning let's say at the southern end and just kind of describe what it looked like there uh -- before anything was built.
SAUNDERS: Well the -- the [unclear] at the side was outside of the city limits but the south, just south of the -- town was Briscoe ranch and down in-between there and the city limits was a swamp where the cattails used to grow. We used to go out there and pick cattails in the spring, or I guess in the fall when you pick 'em. Then the first business that I can remember, let's say, in the [19]30's on the right side as you're going north was Punky's filling station and it was Powerene gas at first and then it went over to Conoco gas at one time. And their house was a little duplex catty-corner across the street and got a blue red brick duplex and that is now a liquor store. Then just north of Punky's garage, back in on the right side, there was space, Mr. Punky built a garage in there to put his car and his truck, because he had a bulk tank truck that he delivered gas to the farmers in. And it was, was a lot between he and then there was Schweiger's garage. George Schweigers garage. And then just north of that was a big old two story house called the Flierl house and that's gone. Schweigers garage is gone.
OBERLIN: Can you spell that name for us? Flierl --
SAUNDERS: F-L-I-E-R-L. Flierl.
OBERLIN: All right. [moving] And we are not to Second Street yet is that right?
SAUNDERS: Oh heavens no. Uh -- then there was -- Schweiger -- you don't need to know how to spell that do you?
OBERLIN: No.
SAUNDERS: Then uh -- there were next was the Smith, I think it was Smith but the Fritz's lived there so long it was known as the Fritz house. And on the west side of the street was still that building where, I don't know what's there now. That package -- packaging something, this long white building and I can't remember what it was originally built for but at one time it was Soil Conservation was in there, then there was George Schweiger's home. A nice brown -- I guess it was shingle siding on the west side, then a little house next door and I can't recall the ladies name that lives there -- Now we're about to, I guess it's South Street. Then -- just north of South Street, Mr. And Mrs. Rand had a filling station. I think they -- I don't remember what kind of gas they sold. They had a filling station and behind that was Cottage Court and they were little fake log cabins. They were little cabins with siding and then right across the street they also had a little, another little building that they sold souvenirs and knick-knacks out of. And then now we're, and down over the hill there was a depression down into Seller's Gulch and there was a little house down in there and some people by the name of Crispin lived down there. That's long gone. And uh -- I think Rands and their Cottage Court took up most of that up to the creek, then we cross the bridge and on the -- right was a vacant lot first and then a Sinclaire filling station. And then -- on the next corner was another garage and at one time that belonged to some people by the name of Black. And -- across the street was mostly -- vacant but there was a huge big white house on the corner of Third and Wilcox on the -- southwest corner. That belonged to some people by the name of Eichling and it had the dry goods store. And they built a new house down on Wilcox and -- uh -- Butch Strange opened up a malt shop in there. And somehow there was a fire, some -- and I can't even tell you the years but that house burned and then eventually someone put up a building and there was a restaurant and a bar in there. And that's where First Bank is now. Then as long as I can remember, there's always been the Masonic Hall on the corner and then there was this big vacant lot that they just had a boarded up fence and after Butch Strange's malt shop burned and the Eichling house he built in that space and opened up his malt shop over there and served hamburgers and hot-dogs and malts and -- it was a hangout for all the kids. And then there across the street of course has always been the courthouse which took up the whole block. Then there was a -- restaurant back to the east side of the street again and I cannot remember who owned it during the [19]30's but the -- in the back of my mind it seems to me that it was people by the name of Clark. -- And then John and Ann Kidder ran it at one time and at another time Ray and Ethel Barns had residence in there and it's always been, was mostly all a restaurant until prohibition went out and then they could put bars in. Then -- in the [19]30's then the next, after the restaurant was VanLopik Drug Store and that's always been a drug store, is still a drug store. Then next to the drug store is the little building and that little building is still there and it, at one time, Jack Moore, had a clothing, men's clothing store in there and then -- I don't -- he closed it out and started the sandwich shop in there. And that's where the back bar that's down in the B & B was in that little sandwich shop. And it came from Leadville.
OBERLIN: That's interesting information.
SAUNDERS: Then next was Kroll's grocery and at one time it was the Shellabarger grocery and it was a little frame building. And I can remember going in there and going back to the meat market and there was sawdust on the floor in the meat market. And when Bob Longworth had a little store in there, up until the [19]70's when Safeway came in, Bob Longworth still had -- the big steel meat hooks and the wooden meat -- big table -- what do they call it?
OBERLIN: Butcher block?
SAUNDERS: Yeah the butcher block table out of that old, old, old store. And then next -- uh, I think was the Record, was the Record-Journal. -- That printed our newspaper. And then uh -- at one time there was a barber shop along in there but then during the [19]30's and sometime in there Harold Sander had a -- his office in there, his lawyer's office. Then -- I've got to think back now.
OBERLIN: Are we still in the three hundred block Bette?
SAUNDERS: Yeah --
OBERLIN: Okay --
SAUNDERS: Three hundred -- yeah -- then, there was a hardware store next to Harold Sander's and some people by the name of Lacey had it at one time. And my cousin -- my friend Virginia and I used to go to Kroll's grocery, buy a bottle of lime rickey and a box of chocolate-peppermint cookies and then we'd go down and visit Mrs. Lacey and she would furnish the glasses out of the hardware store and we'd three would drink lime rickey and eat chocolate cookies. The next was the meat market and then next on the corner was Michael Isaac's dry good store. But it went out of business and they divided the store up into what is now the barber shop and the B & B and the bicycle shop -- no Hi's Western I guess is in there now. Is it?
OBERLIN: Yeah --
SAUNDERS: But that at one time was a big dry goods store and I can remember, we bought -- they sold everything -- we bought new beds and spring mattresses back in oh -- 1929, or maybe it was even into 1930.
OBERLIN: Do you have any memory of that corner when the old courthouse stood there?
SAUNDERS: Vaguely. I can remember when it was served as a post office and my great-aunt, Violet Webster, Mrs. A. G. Webster was a post mistress and I was so -- I would come home from school -- I guess I must have been going to school, I can't remember why I was coming down the street but I remember stopping in to see Aunt Violet and I was so short that I would have to grab a hold of the counter and pull myself up so that I could look over and talk to Aunt Violet. And then -- across the street from that now we're -- let's see, third -- we're at fourth -- and as far back as I can remember that bank building has been there. And then there was a big old two-story house and I don't know what -- that may have been Garling [unclear] House, I don't know what it was. The big old two-story house and it had a liquor store and a beauty shop on the first floor and then there was an apartment upstairs. And across the street was the big old -- what do you call it -- Featheroff hotel and then it was City Hotel and in the [19]30's it was M and M, M and -- now M and M -- restaurant -- and Ida and Lucy Lambert, it was a restaurant and a hotel and Ida and Lucy Lambert ran it during the [19]30's. And I worked as a waitress. I had a brief career as a waitress there. That was not one of my favorite things to do -- then at the end of there, between there and the alley was the shed. Old sheds and a wood fence. Then back again across the street to just after we had by the big old bank and the big old two-story house was a big old red brick house that belonged to Mrs. Strange. And it had a beautiful shaded yard on the north and way back to the alley. Then next -- to the Ford Garage, the Stervens, by the way, owned that garage at that time -- and somewhere -- in the late [19]30's Burgesses bought it. It was Burgess motor company then next to them was -- oh boy, I forgot her name -- oh -- there was a little house in there -- oh why, I had it but now it's gone -- there was a little house in there and during the [19]30's -- Hugets lived there! She was a Wolfensburger, Alice Wolfensburger was a school teacher and she married Jim Huget and they lived in that little house. I think it was -- Grandma Hillburger had lived in the main house -- it was kind of key shaped as I remember and they could rent part of it -- then the next house on the corner was a big old two-story white house, it was the Phillips house. And Mrs. Phillips was a widow with two daughters and her mother-in-law lived with her. Grandma Phillips and she rented her school, her upstairs to school teachers, boarders, took in boarders and roomers and that was right directly across the street from my grandmother's house and of course all of those are gone now. Then across the street, north -- now we're up at sixth street. On the corner was a big old two-story house, the Kendall House. Frank Kendall lived there and it seemed to me at one time that maybe A.Z. Clarke lived there, but that -- I'm pretty fuzzy on that -- then next the Johnsons place, a little house, a little wooden house – the Johnsons lived. And uh -- that Susie Johnson's in-laws and then there was the Stervens house next to them. A little wooden frame house, then there was a vacant lot and then there was, where Mrs. Burger lived and then next on the corner was where Virgil Case lived but somewhere in the [19]30's was when Eichling house built on that vacant lot and moved from the two-story house up on the corner that burned. And across on the west side of the street on the corner was a little old wooden frame house that belonged to Hugh Taylor. And he was a judge. And I have no idea when he died but I do remember the Olsen's moved in there while I was in -- it might have been while I was in high school -- maybe it was a little later, I can't remember that exactly. Then there was Mrs. -- oh dear, here I go again -- can't remember her name. -- oh, how do I forget these people's names -- it'll come to me -- she also rented rooms, a room to teachers. I don't know if she boarded 'em or not. Can't remember that but she had one room and -- during the depression at one time I worked for the county for a few weeks. My father was county commissioner and they offered me a job and he let me work for maybe a month but he didn't believe in it because he was county commissioner they shouldn't let me have a job. So I -- Shellabarger!! Mrs. Shellabarger, it was her house. And it was her husband and her brother-in-law that had the little grocery store up on -- farther up on Wilcox at one time. Then next was what is the Golden Dobbin that was the Old Schweiger House and then the Tuggle house. Then there it becomes -- then Sixth Street. Along -- on the east side of Sixth Street was what was known as the high school and that's where I went to high school. And that was not remodeled and changed until 1937 and it was a WPA project. That's when they started. Cause when I went to it it was just a little high school built with lava rock. Then on the west side of the street was my grandmother's sister home. Mrs. Web -- the Webster home. And it took up huge big -- well it took up three-fourths I would say, of that lot. And it had beautiful juniper trees along the south. Big cottonwoods, big evergreens in the front yard, in front of the door and on the north there was crabapple trees that we used to climb in and pick the crabapples in the fall. And out in back was the barn and my grand, my aunt -- my Aunt Vi was an artist and out in back was her shed where she stored a lot of her art supplies.
OBERLIN: Is this a stone house Bette?
SAUNDERS: No it was a frame house. And that's the one then the Longworth's bought and added onto and torn down and burned up or whatever it is, a few years ago it was nothing but a vacant lot from that house. Then next was Aunt Minnie Stervens house on the corner and that's gone, long gone. A real estate office is there. Now we're to -- Seventh Street. Well the little house on the east side is still there. It was there then and that belonged to Clayburn Wilson and his mother. On the east -- west side was the -- Gladys Ritters beautiful big stone home that's gone, long gone. Then uh --
OBERLIN: Now that home of Gladys Ritters? That originally was the home of O'Brien? [unclear] O'Brien, is that not correct?
SAUNDERS: I can't remember that. It -- to me -- it was -- Gladys Ritters parents home at one time and their name was Johnston but -- it could have been O'Brien. I won't say one way or the other. I don't remember THAT far back. Then uh -- then there was the little house on the corner on the east side that belonged to Wilson and then there was a little house in there that belonged to a funny little old man named Highland -- somebody's little small house but during the [19]30's it -- my school -- one of my school teachers rented it and I really don't know who owned it or anything. Then long in there was Ernie Martin, had a filling station. -- and that was just about the end -- on the east side of the street and let's see -- over on the west was Mrs. Ritter's house and then -- Shull had a little house up in front and that -- it's still there and they started to build a bigger, Dr. Shull was a dentist here in town. Also he was supposedly mixed up with the Ku Klux Klan [laughter] but he probably didn't hang out with 'em, I couldn't prove it. They started to build a bigger house on the back of the lot and he died of a heart attack. So Mrs. Shull lived in that little house at the back for years and years then next was a little tiny house that belonged to the Lassler's and I can remember going there to -- visit Mrs. Lassler. Oh! There's another little house over on the other side of the street. The Whisenhunts lived in for years and years and years. That was there and it's still there. And -- I don't remember how long the Stephens built their house in there. And the house that Beth Scott owned, I can't remember who owned it before her, and who lived there. I think it was mostly a rental for a while and then back over on the west side again, after you went by Shulls there was the -- a big old two-story house that -- Beene's lived in, Fred Bean. That was Carroll Hier's father-in-law. Cause I used to go down and play with Flo Bean and then uh -- Barry lived there a long time. And then Ed Metzler lived there and eventually that got torn down and put into a shopping center and then north of them were some just little-- little cinder block house and little shack -- it was someplace along in there Mrs. Rand had a -- a little -- roadside market. And in the summer's she used to sell produce out of it. And -- there again, I can't remember who owned it. Oh -- wait a minute -- Freeze. Some people by the name of Freeze lived there. And I think they had a little filling station. Maybe some little cabins back in there and then that was about the end of the town.
OBERLIN: Do you remember when the overpass was put in, that was built?
SAUNDERS: Yes! That -- that was put in before the flood in [19]65. And my father was mayor -- passed away in 1948 and he was mayor and the town board. They went to the -- state highway department because at one time there used to be a bridge from Third Street across Seller's gulch over to the Santa Fe Bridge but it washed out in 1945 and they would never put it back. The Santa Fe Railroad wouldn't put it back. The state highway wouldn't put it back. Nobody would put it back but they tried to get -- daddy went in and tried to get them to put that bridge back. A group from Douglas County went in -- and my dad and mom to get that bridge back so that they would have access to the Santa Fe Depot without going miles around. Are we about to run out? --
OBERLIN: So do you remember the date of them putting the bridge, the new bridge --
SAUNDERS: Well it had to be prior to the -- we had this horrible flood in 1965 and it was prior to that that they started it. So I would say -- 1965 -- they probably started it in the 1960's. But they were plannin' this freeway, this interstate twenty-five for years before. In fact I can remember when they first began, was about [19]53 that they started it and it was, one time, it was just one section and they ended just out by Happy Canyon and -- a lot of the local people were against them coming down into the valley and coming through the town. They wanted them to stay up on the ridge and come down up by Greenland because of the flood danger there would be in coming down and crossing Plum Creek and following Plum Creek up to Larkspur. So when the flood in [19]65 they were working on the freeway then, interstate twenty-five. The flood came and it buried a lot of their big road equipment. Buried semi-trailer trucks, buried big front-end loaders, bulldozers, things were just tumbled over like weeds. And that all of course, washed out access, washed out part of the overpass. It really did a lot of damage.
OBERLIN: So without -- did you have rain for a number of days or --
SAUNDERS: No -- for a number of hours. It rained something like -- it rained -- started about 2 p.m. at Palmer Lake it says here, and it flooded Plum Creek. It flooded Seller's Gulch. It flooded West Plum Creek and I think it rained something like -- oh, seventeen inches in -- four hours.
OBERLIN: So tell me the effects of this flood on the city --
SAUNDERS: Well -- across the street from me lived Mr. And Mrs. Pickens were living there but it took out the bridge across Seller's Gulch just on -- what is called Wilcox now. It -- they just -- there was a mobile home court over there against -- on the south side of Seller's Gulch and they didn't stop or disconnect the water or anything. They just hooked on to those mobile homes and pulled 'em out of the way of the flood. Well way -- and out south of town where the Briscoe ranch was and that swamp was. Seller's Gulch split and went west to Plum Creek, then the rest came along down the regular water way, bringing it's wake across, next to Second street and they met down here by another mobile home court that it washed away. And on that little island, it isolated a lot of people. They couldn't get out to the south, they couldn't get out to the north. But they could stay in contact with walkie-talkies. And the REA building was over there and that -- they all stayed there that night. And kept in touch with the authorities by walkie-talkies. But we had no water, we had no telephone, we had no electricity. The fire department came around and told us -- in the evening that there was water in some of the homes up on the hill, if we needed water. So I loaded up some plastic jugs and went up, somewhere up on -- Gilbert Street or Anderson and filled up my jugs with water and eventually electricity came on up that far, because I went up to Lois Remley's on Cantril street to watch on television to see, because we had no idea what happened north of us. Well, I even had people isolated here for several hours. They couldn't get out to Glovers. Cause you had to cross Seller's gulch. And we had a gasoline camp stove and a gasoline lantern. So we had light and we had -- she brought, thoughtful enough, she grabbed jugs of distilled water at the grocery store and milk before they came up here and we had two children who were to meet their parents at the variety store. And the father was caught up at West Creek and the mother was caught over on West Plum Creek and so my friends took 'em with them for a couple of days. But we -- I had canned soups and she, as I said, she was thoughtful enough to bring stuff. So we weathered that, but Ben was in Denver working and he came home. Stopped in Littleton and they said, did you know Castle Rock was washed away? And he wouldn't believe them because where he was working, the sun had been shining. That was out on north Federal. When he got to Sedalia, cause the patrol stopped him and told him he couldn't go any further, the roads were closed, they flooded out. So he stayed in Sedalia and helped evacuate people down along Plum Creek. And he got home about eleven o'clock at night. Yeah -- Something like that, and he said there was never such a feeling in his life, driving to his house, no lights, no people, were deserted -- and he didn't know where I was. I'd gone up to Lois' to watch on television so he started cruising the streets, and then when he saw me, well he also was going to check on his mother's house because it was in the lowland area and he was worried about her. But she -- I came home and we stayed on, stayed here in the house and cooked our breakfast on the gasoline stove.
OBERLIN: Well you must have had a bird's eye view --
SAUNDERS: I had a bird's eye view -- I've got movies of it. Which I -- eventually I'm going to try and get put on videotape. Because I -- I was out watching. I couldn't see anything but walk from window to window to watch and uh --
END OF SIDE A, TAPE 1
BEGIN SIDE B, TAPE 1
[There are a few minutes of silence before the interview resumes]
SAUNDERS: But it was several days before we got telephone connection in. We were fortunate. We got water and electricity I think. -- the next day but we didn't get the telephone for about two or three days. And uh -- we could call locally but not long-distance. And my niece was stationed in Fort Benjamin Harrison in Indianapolis and she had to contact the Red Cross to see if we were all right. And eventually things were restored. But oh boy! What a mess for a while. And then it rained a lot that summer, and we laugh today. Our Saturday night entertainment, they would put a temporary bridge across there, Seller's Gulch, -- Saturday afternoon it would rain and the bridge would wash out. So finally they just gave up and they just, graded it so you went down across the creek and up the other side. And they did have a detour over here on Perry Street down through the creek too so we could get around. But -- it made a mess, and it made a mess of the interstate. They had a lot of work to put in and I don't remember now, but it did take out part of the uh -- one span -- I think of, Wolfensburger overpass was wiped out. Course there was sand on the freeway, washed sand up -- on the roads that were already built. A lot of work. So --
OBERLIN: Well that was fascinating. Uh -- you witnessed the move of the Rio Grande Depot. Why don't you describe that to us.
SAUNDERS: Well I found out -- let's see, I gotta get my papers because I don't want to get my dates wrong. -- I found out in December of 1969 that they were going to move the depot. Where I learned to -- so I hurried up and took some pictures of it, up there boarded up and everything. Then they started to move it. And they had a big old huge truck. Old Snort is the name of it. 475 horse power and they loaded it up and they brought it down and they brought it down from the corner of the Rio Grande tracks and Third Street. Brought it west, then they had to turn right onto Perry Street because there were too many power lines and phone lines and things up the alley that they couldn't get under, on Third Street. So they brought it a block south on Perry Street. They turned the corner of Second and Perry and I -- there was an old cottonwood that was out there that was leaning over and a branch was leaning in the way. And they came in and asked if they could cut the branch off and I said yes. It's really on town property but you can cut that branch off. And I heard the whining of a saw and I looked and they were at the base of that tree getting ready to cut that tree off. And I shot across the lawn in three steps, screamin' bloody murder and stopped 'em from cutting that tree down. And the tree was still there when they put in the new sidewalk and curb and gutter but they gently moved that house just practically inch-by-inch around the corner and down Second Street. Then they turned right on Wilcox and eased it gently down Wilcox to Third. Then they turned left on Third and went on Third down to Elbert and then they turned right on Elbert and moved it down to the final resting place. And everybody -- we had people sitting out here in lawn chairs watching. Taking movies, taking pictures. We've all got pictures -- of them moving it.
OBERLIN: Well that had to be a sentimental journey for you --
SAUNDERS: Well it was --
OBERLIN: You're having worked for the railroad.
SAUNDERS: I was just glad they didn't tear it down, that's all. And then, what's our next big -- big historical -- the courthouse fire, I guess.
OBERLIN: Yes, let's talk about --
SAUNDERS: And I -- I am an insomniac and I don't sleep well and at night when I get up I walk around through the house. And I look out all the windows. And this is in March of 1978. and I walked through the backdoor and looked out and I could see these flames. And I -- Ben was asleep and I went in and woke Ben up and I said “Ben, something's on fire. I think it's the courthouse.” Then I begin to worry for fear it was the old apartment house across the street. Ben's brother had an apartment in and he smoked in bed and I was scared that it was the apartment house. And we -- we did get dressed, semi. I remember I pulled my slacks and -- a shirt on over my pajamas and got a coat on and we went down -- in fact, along the south side of Third Street and watched it burn. Cryin'. And everybody was down there, everybody in town. And the next morning it was terrible. And my only regret is, and I cried that night, I said “Why, didn't I steal the doorknob.” They had the most beautiful doorknobs and I always wanted to steal the doorknobs. And my one regret is I didn't get to steal a doorknob out of that courthouse.
OBERLIN: Sometimes it pays to be a thief --
SAUNDERS: [laughter] I wanted one the worst way, and I used to be in and out of there enough -- and they knew me well enough that I could have stolen a doorknob and they wouldn't have even known who had done it for sure. But I didn't do it.
OBERLIN: Well that had to be a sad day for this town.
SAUNDERS: It was -- it was -- it was. And then when they pushed it over, said it couldn't be restored. And they pushed it over, and they built that MONSTROSITY down there that everybody in the STATE, that knows the old courthouse, hates that place. Cause I've had people say we used to like drive through there and look at that pretty old building. You don't like to drive through there anymore.
OBERLIN: What were the factors do you think, that brought about a new building rather than a rebuilding of the old?
SAUNDERS: Uh -- well I just think they had a bunch of men on there that didn't appreciate old buildings. They didn't realize the historical value of it. -- All they could see was ahead -- and build something for the future. And it doesn't even fit the future and they presented in the paper, three drawings. And my -- and here again is another regret of mine. That I didn't save that paper. And people voted on which building they wanted. Which they liked the best. It's no more the building, that people voted on, -- that they put up. It's as different as day and night.
OBERLIN: Was that a decision made by the county commissioners at the time?
SAUNDERS: As far as I know. Along in there I lost my -- connections. I used to through my father and his long work in the Democratic Party, I used to have a few connections on the inside. Along there abouts that time, I've lost my connections so I don't know. But all I know is what I can read in the paper. And I think they just opt for the cheapest they can get. And -- here's something else. They wouldn't let people go and get those old stones. They bought them up and dumped 'em in Seller's Gulch across the street from my house and every night there were people down there salvaging those stones. -- The -- it happened all the time. They'd dump 'em and people would take 'em up. But they wouldn't let you go down there on the courthouse lawn and pick 'em up.
OBERLIN: So as far as you know, were there anything saved from that old building, like doors, -- doorknobs, windows, anything?
SAUNDERS: Not that I know of. A few things, I've got a map in the dining room that Charles Miller saved. I think what was saved, -- was mostly stuff that was in the basement and stored in the vault. Now some records were lost. I think it was the assessor's office that was getting ready to move. -- I'm sure it was the assessor's and their -- some of their records were lost. But most of the records were saved because there were two big vaults -- one on the first floor in the county clerks office and then one directly below it that stored a lot of the old, old, old records. And there again, I used to have access to all of those vaults because I'd worked for Charlie Prescott and I had worked for the Red Cross. And I would have to go into those vaults to look up things. There again, I have another regret. In the old vault, down in the basement, was an old still, from an old moonshining -- and old -- I guess you'd call 'em a still. A big old copper thing. And it had been evidence in a trial of somebody, making bootleg liquor. And I wanted that old copper thing, so bad! And at times, I even had a key to the courthouse. So, because it's the -- Democratic people -- committee people were going to have a meeting at the courthouse they would give me a key to the front door so we could get inside. I could have gotten that -- I could have gotten that still! Why didn't I steal it? [laughter] I wanted that -- I wanted that old still the worst way.
OBERLIN: Well Bette, that's been very interesting. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your husband, Ben and your courtship?
SAUNDERS: Well -- Ben and I, Ben had the fuel and feed store that was right next to my grandmother's home. And Ben and I went to school together. I've known Ben and his family all my life, practically. His older brother used to mow my grandfather's lawn and I adored Ben's older brother. I forget how much older he was, he must have been about ten years older but he'd come down to mow the lawn and I'd stand around talking to him all the time. But of course, Ben was a year ahead of me in high school and his brother was a couple of years ahead but everybody knew the Saunders family. And -- I worked, as I said, for the Rio Grande railroad and I was working up here in the depot. That was in March of [19]45. And Ben came home for leave, on leave from the navy. He'd been gone four -- I don't know how many months overseas and he came in one evening late to pick up his sea bag because the depot stayed open 'til ten o'clock and I went in the freight room and his sea bag wasn't in there. -- Well, he checked back tomorrow and he stood around and he said “Where is Ozzie Sheets?” Well, Ozzie Sheets was in France. Well where is so-and-so, and where is so-and-so and we talked about the different ones that were in the service. I brought him up to date on all of him. And he finally said “Where is Bill?”. And I said, Bill? Bill who? Well, Bill Bader, you're ex? And I said, “Oh, he flew the coop!”. And he said, “What do you mean?” I said, “He walked out one Sunday -- afternoon, and we'd gotten a divorce.” And Ben started to laugh and he said “You're going to have to excuse me for laughing, but I think that's funny.” I said “Go ahead and laugh! I think it's kind of funny myself, now.” And we just more or less joked about it and Ben left. The next night, Ben came back for his sea bag. No sea bag in the freight room and we talked about different ones in the school and he left. Well the third night he came back again for his sea bag and I thought -- now wait a minute, something's funny here. Because Charlie Landers told me Ben's sea bag came in this morning over at the Santa Fe depot. What is he doing down here tonight? Because I was a little thick and I sat there and talked to him and pretty soon my sister showed up. She had my car for the evening and she showed up to pick me up to go home, so she and Ben and I stood around there and talked and finally I said I'm going to have put you guys out. I gotta lock up the place, so I went out and I locked up stuff from the inside. And I had to go through the freight room and out the freight door and lock the freight door and then I had to lock the padlock on the front door. And when I get up to lock the padlock on the front door, Ben's standing there and he says I thought maybe you'd love to go out this evening and have a cup of coffee. And I was so dumbfounded that I never even said “Yes, I'll go.” I just went over and got in his car. Because the Saunders boys never dated. They never went with girls. They were shy and quiet. So Ben and I went out. And I'm going to censor some of the rest of it -- [laughter] Well! No I'm not either, I may as well tell you. Uh -- we went down to the -- oh dear, Ray and Ethel Barnes owned it, downtown, the local bar and he ordered a drink. And I think I got a whiskey sour. Now I am a one drink woman and I mean one drink! But Ben didn't know that. So I guess he let me have two and when -- he saw that things were getting a little out of control he decided we'd better leave so we went outside and it was in the spring and the water -- was melting and the gutters were running and I decided that I'm going wading in the water in the gutter and he decided I am not and he picked me up and chucked me in the front seat of the car and drove me down to Johnson's Corners down at Sedalia and poured coffee in me to sober me up before he takes me home. Well, anyway, my sister was so dumbfounded that she went home and woke my mother and father up and said “You'll never guess who Bette's going out with! She's going out with Ben Saunders.” Well then we kinda -- it was kinda temporary thing. We went together with -- while he was home on leave and then he had to go back to the service. And one of the trips to Denver he and I took my car and he went into the Federal Building and -- to see the -- navy superior and they asked him what duty he wanted and he said the garbage [unclear] in San Francisco Bay. And I thought he was kidding but no, that was the duty he wanted. Wasn't the duty he got. He got sent to Port Chicago and he didn't want to take me -- or want me to take him to the depot when his -- train was to leave and I said why not. I said “You're not the first one I've taken down there and kissed good-bye. I don't shed tears.” So I took him to the depot, I kissed him goodbye and before he left he turned around and he said, “I too like MacArthur shall return.” And I thought, “yeah I've heard that one before.” So he left. Then for my birthday, I got a dozen red roses. This was in September when he left and my birthday is the 31st of October. He sent me a dozen red roses. And then I always said this -- he courted me in the depot, he proposed to me in the depot, he gave me my engagement ring in the depot and I thought FOR SURE we'd get married in the depot. But we didn't.
OBERLIN: That would have been a first. [laughter]
SAUNDERS: But Ben had a dry sense of humor. You had to know him to really -- catch when he was really being funny and he would tell me stories and to this day I don't know if they were the truth or if he was just teasing me. Anyway, we got married in December the 9th , 1945. Very quiet because his mother was English and narrow-minded and didn't believe in him married a divorced woman. So I took my car and went to Colorado Springs. He and Freddie White went down to Colorado Springs and we met down there with my girlfriend and -- even then Ben said to the day that -- until he got there and walked up to Helen's house he wasn't sure I'd be there. He figured that I had my car, I had my clothes, I had my money and he figured I'd be long gone for California. Don't think I didn't think about it either. Because once bit, twice shy. Anyway, we got married and we left on a honeymoon. I think we were gone between three and four weeks, down through New Mexico and Texas. Through there, El Paso, Juarez, Junction City, Corpus Christi, San Antone, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, Oklahoma City, back home. And then, he was a fireman. The fireman -- we knew they'd have a shivaree for us and they did and they -- come one night. Course there was no television and we were watching the radio, listening to the radio and -- they came and routed us out and drove up and down Main Street with the -- us on the back of the fire truck and then we ended up, up at the beer joint and Ben buying beer for everybody. But he saw to it after that that I never had more than one drink [laughter].
OBERLIN: Well you used the word, shivaree, we used to use the word, back in Ohio when I was growing up -- belling, they called it.
SAUNDERS: Belling?
OBERLIN: Belling -- when, I assume it was the same process.
SAUNDERS: The same thing.
OBERLIN: Have you ever head of that?
SAUNDERS: Yes, just recently. Uh -- I read in one of these old reminiscence magazines about it and really the word is a french word, charive arue. You know how we anglicize everything, shivaree and I heard it spelled s-h-i-v-a-r-i-e and all sorts of ways. But there, that was quite a thing in the old days and sometimes they'd make 'em push the gal, the bride down the street in a wheelbarrow and things like that.
OBERLIN: So did you witness many of those shivarees?
SAUNDERS: Well -- I went to a lot of 'em. We went to everybody's. Everybody had one in those days. We'd surprise 'em and of course we'd take, people would take cakes and sandwiches and we'd ring the bells and toot the horns and bang the things and then they'd invite us in and we'd have a party. Sometimes there was music and dancing and sometimes there wasn't. And I -- I couldn't tell you how many I went to. I think my last, my own was the last one I went to probably [laughter]. They died out!
OBERLIN: They did yes.
SAUNDERS: They did.
OBERLIN: It seems like --
SAUNDERS: No they didn't! Because we can remember, course now they have these -- they have the thing at the church and then they, have these -- tour around town with the bells clanging and the horns honking. I guess that's the modern day version of the shivaree.
OBERLIN: Would you tell us some memories that you have of Dr. Alexander. George E. Alexander.
SAUNDERS: Well -- I remember he was a local physician. And I think -- I think he was the doctor when I was born but I didn't think to look that up on my birth certificate. And I don't -- I don't think he was my, when my mother was born but she was born in 1890. I think the Doctor Moore was here then. But -- when Doctor Alexander first came to town -- I don't know if he was married, because after all, that's before my time but I remember grandma talking and he boarded with my grandmother. Didn't room there, I don't, I have no idea where he roomed but she cooked for him. And my mother said that grandma didn't have a big majestic range at that time. She had this, just one of these little old four burner -- low, old-fashioned ranges. And, she would cook for Doctor Alexander and I suppose three times a day. And momma said she can remember grandma frying steak and hot -- in that little kitchen and her cookin' for him. And he was quiet a singer. He did a lot of singing. And -- there's a hotel, somewhere and I guess it may be up around Estes Park because, didn't somebody tell me he came here from Fort Collins?
OBERLIN: Yes he did come from Fort Collins.
SAUNDERS: Well up in there somewhere, is a hotel where he used to sing. I supposed in the evening for entertainment. But there again, these are only memories of things my mother told me.
OBERLIN: Now when he boarded with your grandmother where was she living at the time?
SAUNDERS: Down on the corner of Fourth, Fifth and Wilcox.
OBERLIN: Oh all right.
SAUNDERS: Down in that little house. And I think -- well that's really about the only memories I have of him. He was kind of distinguished looking gentlemen -- and uh -- he, we had him as the doctor when my brother died in 1937 and -- my father always, and mother always -- rather blamed him for not sending my brother to the hospital sooner. In fact, he never would have sent him to the hospital. Daddy went to another doctor and he said, get him to a hospital as quick as you can. So from 1937 on, friendly relations were slightly strained.
OBERLIN: What did your brother have?
SAUNDERS: We don't know for sure. They said, streptococcic infection from a strep throat but later on I talked to a doctor and described some of my brother's symptoms. This terrible fever that he had for days and when he died he was partially paralyzed and this doctor said that there is a possibility that he could have had one of the first cases of [unclear] paralysis. So we don't know, in my brother, they took my brother. Daddy at that time was county commissioner so we took him to what was called Colorado General Hospital and he died in there.
OBERLIN: Do you remember Doctor Alexander going around to see patients -- in a buggy, horse and buggy?
SAUNDERS: No, no. I can remember going to, out in Cherry Valley, going to visit the -- neighbors in the horse and buggy but -- I can't remember -- I can't remember him. In fact, I don't remember many horse and buggies in town. By then, we had a car, Model T. And -- I just don't, I just don't remember that. But vaguely, vaguely in the far reaches of my mind I can remember walkin' with my grandmother on Wilcox street and remember -- just, just a faint memory of wooden sidewalks. It's, it's so vague I'm not sure if it's the truth or a dream.
OBERLIN: Were you ever in the Alexander house on 203 Cantril Street?
SAUNDERS: Yes, uh -- I was in the office with a friend of mine a couple times. And then uh -- I think I was in, and when the other part of the house my -- in the dining room, I had a vague recollection of being there with my grandmother. We went to visit -- one time, Alexander probably and I remember being in the dining room and seeing the kitchen off.
OBERLIN: Can you describe -- Excuse me Bette --
SAUNDERS: They're just so vague.
OBERLIN: Can you describe anything about the entryway, what the waiting area looked like -- uh, anything about the office itself.
SAUNDERS: Well, you went in, would be on Second street. And there was a narrow hallway -- and the doors were all closed except the one on the right. The first door on the right went into his office and I don't remember if the examining room was in there. I remember being in that office cause, as I said, I went with this friend one time. There must have been an examining room somewhere but I don't remember it. Maybe I shouldn't tell this, but what impressed me was, in the corner of his office, I saw a great stack of medical journals at least two feet high, still in their wrappers. And I think that was so mind boggling to me that I don't remember much, I remember his big old roll-top desk and it seems to me I vaguely remember him giving my friend, Elizabeth, some -- I don't even know what she went for. She just wanted me to go with her. Some pills in a little paper envelope.
OBERLIN: Was his desk, do you remember sitting on the, what would be south --
SAUNDERS: West corner --
OBERLIN: South -- east corner.
SAUNDERS: No. As you went in the door, the door was on the right as you went in. His desk was to the right.
OBERLIN: But there is no southwest corner.
SAUNDERS: Well it would have been the southwest corner of the living room. On the east side of the house but the southwest -- well the right corner as you go in the door.
OBERLIN: Do you remember that there were benches in the hallway? Or chairs?
SAUNDERS: I can't remember. I just remember a narrow hallway with the doors all closed. There could have been chairs. I'm not saying -- I don't think there were. I don't think Doctors had enough business in those days, they mostly made house calls.
OBERLIN: Now tell me before we wrap up, just some of the regrets you've had in your life and some of the special pleasures. You mentioned some of the regrets of -- that you didn't get a doorknob from the old courthouse or the still down in the basement. What else?
SAUNDERS: I really don't know, I really don't have the -- regrets I have -- one of my biggest regrets is that I graduated from high school during the depression, eligible for a scholarship but we were too hard up to even send me to college because I wanted to be a Home Ec teacher. Well, when I was a little girl I wanted to be a red-cross nurse. Well first I wanted to be a bare-backed rider in the circus and then I graduated to a red-cross nurse. But when I got older I learned to sew and I wanted to be a Home Ec teacher. But there wasn't the money to send me to college. And so comes the depression, or course as I say, and the only work that I would ever get to do was to go out to the neighbors to do housework or -- I -- went several times to numerous neighbors out in the country after they had a new baby and I would stay ten days to two weeks when they came home with the new baby and -- as I say, all of this time I regretted that I had no, no education to go on and -- earn a living for myself.
OBERLIN: You apparently did well in high school.
SAUNDERS: Well, I guess. I was in the upper third. There again, if my grandmother and mother hadn't nagged me so much and wanted me to be an honor student and be, win the scholarship I think I would have worked harder but I have a tendency to get bull-headed if people nag me. But I did, I made 'em proud of me in the end. I graduated in the upper one-third and that was quite an honor. As I said, I could've -- was eligible for a scholarship but -- there was nothing and I just did baby sitting and a little sewing and things like that. And then my sister had to go to high school and in those days they boarded and roomed in town. They didn't drive out in the country with a school bus and pick them up. So we lived in my grandmothers house and I baby-sat for different people and I did sewing for different people. I even cleaned chimneys for Mrs. Thales. I wasn't too proud to do anything to earn a little money. And my sister and I kept house. And my sister went to high school and then along in there's when I met Bill and got married. And I can't say that was a regret. In a way I regretted it at the time, when he walked out. What I regretted was, I wasn't -- I had no training. I could not support myself. And then -- then -- after Bill walked out, mom and daddy --
OBERLIN: When was this Bette, what date did Bill --
SAUNDERS: Oh it was August, August or September of -- [19]44, I guess.
OBERLIN: And give us his last name.
SAUNDERS: [19]43 -- maybe. Bader, B-A-D-E-R. And I have no idea whatever became of him. Eventually, eventually he met to Utah. But we kept no contact. But -- daddy and momma moved to town in somewhere after daddy rented the ranch and moved into town. And I knew I had to earn my own living. I can't live off of my mother and father. So, -- in my twenties. I'm over twenty-six by now. And I -- thought well I've got, the war is on -- I thought well I'll list in the WAC's or I'll try and get a job as an alteration lady in one of the big department stores in Denver. And the day before I was to go, I was going to go to Denver, Charlie Landers from the Santa Fe Depot came to the house and told me that the railroads were hiring young women to go out to work on the railroads as telegraph operators. Because of the shortage of the men. And to look into that. So -- I did a little looking, I mean thinking. And I went to Denver and first I tried to enlist in the WAC's and they wouldn't take me because they found out I had hay fever and -- then I went to the alteration department and the lady, I talked to the head alteration lady and told her what the story was. And she said, “Take my advice and stay out of here.” She says go to work for the railroad if you can. So I walked on down the street and went to the Rio Grande railroad and they hired me and I trained up here with Mr. Reslow, right here in Castle Rock. I guess we'd call it on-the-job training and I don't know. I must have been in training six weeks or so, four to six weeks. And my first job they sent me to Husted, up where the Air Academy is now. But that, that I think is my biggest regret. Because any time I -- had to work, I'd never had to work after I married Bill, Ben I mean. The only reason I worked was to keep myself occupied and keep myself out of trouble, shopping [laughter].
OBERLIN: What are your happy, what are the happiest memories you can think of?
SAUNDERS: Well, some of the happiest ones are when Ben and I lived in South Dakota and Wyoming. I think South Dakota because we were far away from our mothers, because they couldn't bug us [laughter]. That and then the years after Ben, when Ben retired and we could travel. And we had, you know, we fought and argued over. He would never look at a map. I had to read all the maps and tell him where to go and then he would argue with me. Don't ask me why they did this, I didn't print the maps I just read 'em. But we had a lot of fun and we did a lot of traveling and then in the summers, we'd go up to -- he inherited his brothers cabin up at Twin Lakes and those were happy -- because we had no telephone. We had no television. We had no traffic to speak of and we, both of us loved to read but in the evening we'd lay, I'd lay on the sofa and he'd sit in a recliner and we would talk. And in those few years we talked more than we ever talked our entire married life because -- there was nothing -- he didn't have a job that he had to come home and think about. I didn't have a lot of housework or sewing to think about and we told each other things that happened in our lives that we had never told each other before. Of course, my hair would have been snow white if I had known he was driving over Wolf Creek Pass in the middle of winter, just ahead or behind snow slides. He never told me that, it's a good thing he didn't. But, that's it. I think those are the happiest years.
OBERLIN: And what about possibly, the most stirring or -- I noticed in your earlier interview, when you were asked about -- V-J (Victory in Japan) Day, you -- you became very emotional.
SAUNDERS: [becomes emotional] I still can't talk about it. I -- I don't know why. I guess -- it's just because after all those years of hell. It's over. -- And even though, I went with soldiers. I know 'em. I know local boys that were killed and even though there was no romance with any, a lot of these men you still worried about 'em and it hurt when they died. And finally, it's all over! And I felt the same way when Desert Storm ended. And I can't understand why -- why I get emotional. I've lost my mother. I've lost my father. I've lost two brothers. -- and I can't -- and my husband -- and still, V-J Day, makes me more emotional. And it was, Ben, when he came home couldn't talk about the war. -- for years. I don't like to talk about V-J Day but I really, I can't understand why. And I have tried to analyze it. But I guess, I think that's it. You just have to -- thank God, all these years of being -- just waitin'. How did you know, maybe a bomb was dropped suddenly. It's the let down, it's over.
OBERLIN: I ask you because I think it's important for people, who later on listen to this tape understand how people really felt during that period. I mean, hopefully we will never have another period like that but --
SAUNDERS: They can't understand because -- everything was rationed nearly. Gasoline was rationed, shoes were rationed, the meat was rationed, sugar, flour, coffee and uh -- you do without. You make over. And we didn't go out and recklessly, with gay and reckless abandon, take photographs. We couldn't get film half the time. But we all nearly, every family had a map, and watched and we listened to the radio and we read the newspapers to keep up with what was going on. And I remember the day when Pearl Harbor day. Uh -- Bill Bader and I were living in Boulder and we had come down from Boulder and brought his brother, and left his brother here with his family, I mean his father. And went out to the ranch to visit mom and daddy and we heard on the radio out there, and when we went home. Went back to Boulder, we stopped on Federal somewhere and bought a paper from the newsboy because we just could not believe it. And then I remember, listening to the radio the next day, and hearin' Roosevelt speak. The day of infamy. And of course -- that was December, 1941. And from then on, you just -- more or less lived a day at a time.
OBERLIN: You're a wonderful story-teller Bette. Thank you so much for spending time with me and giving your historical perspective to, to those people who will come after both of us.
SAUNDERS: Well, I hope they enjoy it.
END OF INTERVIEW